1. Can you introduce yourself and your relationship with the Nubian movement in Egypt?

I am a Nubian born to a father from the village of Abrim and a mother from the village of Toshki Sharq,¹The villages of Abrim and Toshki Sharq are in Aswan Governorate in Upper Egypt, specifically in Nasr al-Nuba Center, where Nubians displaced by the construction of the High Dam in the 1960s settled. a mixture of the Fajika tribe, one of the main Nubian tribes. I still remember my mother cleaning the house with a broom and me dancing behind her to the tunes of Africa's first artist, the late Mohamed Wardi. I remember my family and gatherings, and I remember my grandmother Fatima Oshallah and her beautiful speech in Nubian and very weak Arabic. I remember her stories that started with praying to the Prophet and continued in Nubian, which my brothers, cousins, and I did not understand, but we waited for her anyway to enjoy her sweet voice. Unfortunately, no one in my immediate or extended family was interested in teaching me Nubian, so I considered myself mute and did not speak my native language.

One of my many memories is that of my uncle Abbas giving me the novel "El Shamandoura" (The Buoy) by the late Mohamed Khalil Kassem, the father of Nubian literature. I didn't finish the novel, but the words "displacement" and "land" were ingrained in my consciousness. These memories shaped my future path as an activist in the Nubian movement. From the songs, dances, and stories, I realized that there was a history and heritage that I needed to immortalize. It wasn't until I went to university to study politics that I realized the depth of the problem. When I realized this, the first thing I paid attention to was discrimination and racism, because they are daily obstacles for me.

2. What was the reality of the Nubian movement before the 25 January Revolution and what were the most important phases it went through?

Let me give you some brief facts about recent Nubian history. In 1898, Nubia was first divided into Egyptian Nubia and Sudanese Nubia at 22 degrees north latitude by an agreement between the British and the Egyptians. The influence of the British colonialists was evident in the division of Nubia until the Mahdist revolution.²The Mahdist Revolution is a religious and political movement led by Muhammad Ahmad al-Mahdi in Sudan in the late 19th century, which aimed to liberate the country from Ottoman-Egyptian rule and establish an Islamic state. The colonial influence continued with the beginning of the construction of reservoirs in Egyptian Nubia in 1902 to provide the maximum amount of water for cotton cultivation. The British began construction of the Aswan Dam in 1902, the first reservoir in 1912, and finally the second reservoir in 1933. With each construction or raising of the reservoir, the Nubians were displaced to the highest point of the Nile. The Egyptian government did not help the Nubians in the face of their displacement, and the Nubians found themselves drowning in their homes and were forced to leave them.

The turning point in the displacement of the Nubians coincided with the construction of the High Dam, one of the largest projects in Egypt. The construction of the dam required the creation of Lake Nasser, which flooded many Nubian villages on the banks of the Nile. This resulted in the displacement of the Nubians from October 1963 to June 1964. The Egyptian government organized the displacement and moved most of the displaced villages to the Kom Ombo desert, breaking the backs of the Nubians. Most of the houses were unfinished, and many of the elderly and children died because of the harsh conditions of displacement and lack of medical care. The migration to Kom Ombo was difficult for some and a window of hope for others, but the Nubians never stopped longing for the "old country." The loss and displacement and the poverty of the Nubians of Kom Ombo, compared to the “old country”, were the main drivers of the Nubian movement.

3. What was the reality of the Nubian movement during the 25 January Revolution? How did Nubian participation in the revolution begin? Which organizations were active at the time and what were their characteristics in terms of class, age, gender, and geography?

On the last day of the January Revolution, the day of Mubarak’s stepping down, I was on Mohamed Mahmoud Street and saw a small demonstration coming from Abdeen, a Nubian stronghold in Cairo. The protesters were holding a sign that read "Dafi Dafi Dafi Woh Mubarak," meaning "Go away, go away, Mubarak." It was a small demonstration, but for me, it was a perfect demonstration of the principle of citizenship. We are citizens with full rights and duties, and we have a specificity that must be respected. I was heartened by this demonstration that headed to Tahrir Square and melted into the crowd. It left a great impact on me. A month later, I joined the Nuba Democratic Youth Union, which was one of my proudest experiences. Several youth entities emerged after the revolution, some of which were concerned with culture, language, and heritage, while others were politicized. The Union was politicized, and the members had different ideological affiliations, but this did not hinder its work. What I liked as a feminist was that women in the union were outside the stereotypical role of women in Nubian entities, participating in decision-making instead of just making tea and offering hospitality as is common in other organizational forms.

The January Revolution was an opportunity to express what was on the minds of our generation. We engaged with the political reality and were able to change it. I remember that in the middle of the presidential elections, a Muslim Brotherhood leader said that the Nubian kings who ruled Egypt in ancient times were invaders and that Nubians were a community in Egypt, which provoked us as Nubian youth. As members of the union, we agreed to hold a sit-in in front of the Nubian Public Club, and we were joined by the youth of the Balana Association, another Nubian organization that works to preserve the cultural and linguistic heritage of Nubia. In fact, we succeeded in preventing the Brotherhood from visiting the Nubian Club, the headquarters of all Nubians, and we did not accept their apology for what they had done.

Nubian political activism is characterized by several qualities, some positive and some negative. One of the first characteristics of the Nubian movement is that it is organized between Cairo, Alexandria, Suez, and the villages of displacement. There are organizational structures such as follow-up committees and the Nubian Lawyers Association, as well as village associations in the cities of migration. However, the main challenge is that Nubian action has remained seasonal, without a clear plan or strategy. Nubian action has been limited to reactions to the regime, without any anticipation of the government's actions. On the other hand, one of the most important characteristics of the Nubian movement is that it is collective, not limited to one city, one tribe, or one village; rather, Nubians move as one bloc and pursue common goals, even if they are reactive. I also think that the weak relationship between political parties, civil society organizations, and human rights organizations is an obstacle because Nubians only coordinate in times of crisis. I believe that Nubians who are involved in political parties and human rights organizations are responsible for this mistake, as they could play the role of liaison between the two parties. Finally, the worst aspect of Nubian activism is the distance of youth and women from decision-making circles. Women are usually involved in organizational structures in traditional roles, either social or traditional, while there are very few women in political circles. Similarly, the youth are the fuel of the movement and the main actors, but they are not decision-makers. This is why young people are using social media to express their opinions and build structures that express their ideas.

4. Given the active participation of Nubian youth and women in the 25 January Revolution, did this change the form of Nubian organizing and the effectiveness of youth and women and their influence in the movement?

The revolution brought about a noticeable change in the representation of youth and women in Nubian community organizations. It has become more common to find youth organizations or groups, and women have integrated and are represented in youth and traditional entities. For example, the "Nubia Pulse" group was formed away from the center in Alexandria and followed or coincided with other women's movements. Although traditional entities opened space for youth and women, their presence in new entities was noticeable. These new entities also interacted with other young entities born out of the revolution.

5. What was the relationship between traditional Nubian organizations such as the Nubian General Club and the modern or youth organizations that emerged during the revolution?

The new movements sometimes clashed with the traditional entities and participated in activities sponsored by these entities. I remember when the youth refused to visit Essam al-Erian, the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, who wanted to apologize to Nubians after he described them as non-Egyptian and "invaders." More than one youth movement mobilized and rejected El-Erian's visit, while representatives of the old entities agreed and welcomed him and defended the Brotherhood. I understand that there is a debate about the Brotherhood and other political actors in Egypt, but the most intense disagreement between the youth and the traditional entities was shown in this incident.

6. Tell us about your experience in the youth team that supported Hajj Adul, the Nubian representative in the Constitutional Committee. What were the main demands of the Nubians at the time? What was adopted in the Constitution?

The momentum and passion of the revolution was palpable. Nubians participated actively in the elections and the formation of the constitutional drafting committees. In 2012, Professor Manal Tibi was selected as a public figure in the first constitutional committee under the Muslim Brotherhood, but she achieved little success due to the Brotherhood's apparent intransigence and rejection of her proposals. In 2013, Hajjaj Adoul took on the task of representing Nubia in the constitutional committee and requested that Nubians should form a team to help him in his mission. Indeed, a group of young people stepped forward to help him. And I am proud to say I was among them. The Nubian representative and his assistant committee worked to establish several rights in the constitutional document. The most important item was the demand to return to the banks of Lake Nuba and develop the region by 2024. To this were added a series of complementary demands such as the celebration and preservation of Nubian identity. However, this proposal drew the ire of the Arabists because the Nubians proposed that the Nubian language be taught in schools in the villages of displacement and universities as an African-Egyptian language. Other proposals included preserving and recognizing all tributaries of Egyptian culture and belonging to Africa, and adding race, color, and geographical origin to the non-discrimination article in the Constitution. In order to make this proposal more robust, a clause was added requiring that international conventions be considered part of Egyptian legislation if Egypt ratifies them.

7. In your opinion, what factors contributed to the successful inclusion of Nubian demands in the 2014 constitution?

The political process from 2013 to 2014 was successful despite the Brotherhood's opposition to an Egyptian Constitution that reflected the hopes and aspirations of Egyptians. Civil society organizations succeeded in pressuring the Committee of Fifty to reach an agreement and issue a constitutional document that was considered compatible with expectations and demands. Nubians played a clear role in pressuring the committee from the beginning, by highlighting the most important demands and raising the ceiling of expectations. Adul's auxiliary committee was also involved in listening to the Nubians, responding to their demands, and communicating them to all committee members.

8. Have any of the reforms adopted by the document in 2014 been implemented? What decisions after 2014 have affected the rights of the Nubians?

None of the reforms have been implemented. The Nubian language is still threatened with extinction, those who teach it are working on their own without support from the government, and the culture is still presented in a folkloric form without being preserved in any way. We are still waiting for the implementation of Article 236 on the return within 10 years, but the issue is not only the implementation of the article, but discrimination has increased and the president has issued presidential decrees that have complicated the situation and violated the rights of Nubians as indigenous inhabitants of the land in Old Nubia, such as decrees 444 and 355. The Discrimination Commission, which was supposed to investigate allegations of discrimination and racism against Nubians or other Egyptians, was not established.

Unfortunately, 2014 was not a good year to celebrate the recognition of Nubian rights in the nation's supreme law. Decree 444 was issued, which considers the lands of 17 of the villages of return as military borders where it is not permissible to live or move. This means that 17 of the 44 villages of return have been cut off from their lands. In 2016, Presidential Decree 355 was issued to allocate state-owned land to investors, including in Toshki and Furqandi, which are part of the land of return. Nubian youth staged a sit-in in the lands of return to protest the presidential decree. Neither of the two decrees, 444 and 355, which violate the sanctity of the lands of return and the Nubians' constitutional right to return and development, have been rescinded.

Nubians are considered a cultural and ethnic minority, but they are also indigenous people who are historically and collectively tied to their land.

9. How did the Nubians react to these decisions?

There were angry reactions that did not go beyond cyberspace. The Egyptian Association of Nubian Lawyers filed a lawsuit against decrees 444 and 355. Nubians mobilized in 2016 and 2017 but were not able to build a permanent movement or popular pressure. Since the Dafuf detainees, there has been no organized Nubian movement or protest despite continued violations. For example, the transitional period of Article 236, known as the return article, expired in 2024, but the Nubian response remained symbolic.

Nubians in Aswan, especially those from the General Nubian Union, chose to protest Decree 444 by holding a vigil on the day of the sunset on the face of the statue of Ramses II at the Abu Simbel Temple in 2016. This vigil confirmed the decentralization of the Nubian struggle, showing that it was not limited to Cairo, but included all "active" Nubians, whether in the villages of displacement or the major cities.

In 2017, Nubians organized a tambourine march in Aswan, 24 people were arrested, and the businessman Gamal Sorour died in prison. They were arrested for expressing their culture and rejecting the state's violations against them. I do not deny that some Nubians were slightly motivated to defend the detainees, but the movement remained slow and lacked inclusiveness, as not many people gathered around the families of the victims and the activists who were carrying out this task.

10. We have recently witnessed racist campaigns in Egypt claiming that "native" Egyptians are not black or African, how do Nubians experience this and what are the dynamics of the relationship with the rest of society in Egypt?

Unfortunately, racism and xenophobia are rampant in Egypt, which worries some Nubians, because some believe that Nubians are part of an immigrant or refugee community. In 2014, cartoonist Fatima Hassan published a series of cartoons insulting black people. Nubians campaigned against her on social media until she apologized. This campaign was instrumental in raising awareness among many Egyptians that racism is unacceptable, and many showed solidarity with the campaign.

The campaign succeeded in engaging many apolitical Nubians, many of whom joined the organizers. I had hoped to open a discussion about the concept of racism in Egypt because some deny it exists and claim that it is only associated with the white man, while I know for sure that racism is a hatred that exists in any society.

11. How do Nubian expatriates interact with the Nubian movement outside Egypt, and are there any movements happening abroad?

The Nubian movement outside Egypt is unorganized and individualistic. Although there are Nubian organizations, the movement is led by individuals. These individuals may be able to activate Nubians, but the movement is not institutionalized.

12. What are your hopes for the future? Do you think there are ways to revive the struggle that Nubians can take advantage of?

Unfortunately, the current situation in Egypt kills any hope, but we must not lose hope for the future in order to survive. As I said earlier, Nubians are socially organized, which makes it easier to trigger political activism. Young people are still charged with the hope of returning to their historical lands, and there are attempts to teach the Nubian language with the use of the Nubian app on mobile phones and Nubian language schools in Nubian town associations. I always feel that the dream itself is a strength, and I dream of a homeland that respects its groups, culture, and heritage, not only on paper but in practice.